Brief an Fred - Probleme Erwachsener beim Lernen

I wanted to say hello to all of the forum members. Thank you for your nice comments on my books. I'm glad that so many saxophonists are enjoying them.

I don't speak or read any German, but through google translate, I was able to read a fairly accurate (but sometimes quite funny) translation to English.

Claus invited me to join the forum and occasionally post any thoughts or comments I had regarding comments on my books or my "letter to Fred."

Below are some thoughts I wanted to share.

Best Wishes,


Greg Fishman



I noticed that my "Letter to Fred" has received many responses from members of the saxophonforum community. I'm glad that it's generating some nice discussion. Here's a link to the original post on facebook, which generated 58 comments. I also included a lot of follow-up responses. For those interested, "Fred" (not his real name) now studies regularly with me on Skype, and just loves the lessons. He is making excellent progress, and has a whole new, positive attitude about playing and studying.

Here's the link to the original discussion on facebook:

http://www.facebook.com/gregfishmanjazzstudios/posts/168738416496088


By the way, I had google translate the German language responses of your saxophonforum members, and I can see that some of them feel that I have some "professional arrogance" because of some of the tempos I use in my books which may be listed as "intermediate." There is always a danger putting titles on things, such as "beginner," "intermediate," and "advanced." Jazz is a complex language. Anything dealing with it is "advanced." Even "C jam blues" is advanced if you try to play it with a good swing feel and articulation.

It seems that students have a very limited range when dealing with tempos. Charlie Parker, Sonny Stitt, Getz, Coltrane, etc., were playing tempos beyond 350bpm more than fifty years ago. Speed is an important factor in music, because, just as you'd steer a car differently at 20KPH versus 120KPH, everyone needs to learn to play at different tempos, ranging from very slow (40bpm) to incredibly fast (400bpm). The musical content of an improvised solo is dependent on the tempo of the piece being played.

I didn't dictate the extreme tempos used in jazz. The history of the music has dictated it. Somehow, over the past 30 years, it seems that students think of tempo as only ranging from 100bpm up to about 200bpm maximum. This is simply not the way it is in the real world.

Besides, to my way of thinking, just because someone can play a tempo of 200bpm doesn't mean they're not a beginner. They might have good technique or good reading abilities, but not be able to construct an improvisation at that speed. Or, maybe they can play quickly, but the quality of their note choices is not very high, or their articulation isn't clear. A "beginner" or "intermediate" player is simply someone who cannot yet speak the language fluently. He might be an accomplished saxophonist in terms of technique, but a beginner in terms of musical understanding of the language.

There's no ego in this at all. It's just a language. I'm a student of this music, and I'm still learning. I write books that reflect my understanding of this music I've loved and studied for more than thirty years. I've written books with different levels of difficulty...phrasing books, etude books and duet books. However, in my opinion, there are some aspects of the beginning phrasing books that are actually more difficult and advanced than my most challenging etudes, because the phrasing books really expose your tone, time, articulation and musicality more than a fast line of eighth notes at 200bpm. They're different things. Both are important. For some people, playing at 200bpm or faster is not an issue, but playing with warmth and beauty with good time is a huge issue. In the end, we strive to have a well balanced approach.

When I was a student, I was often frustrated with these same issues...playing fast, playing in different keys, etc. I was always mad at myself that I wasn't a better player, until I had a realization that it wasn't about ME...it was about the MUSIC. It was love of the music that required me to learn how to play fast and clean and work on my ear and my ability to communicate through the saxophone. It's almost like a religion. When I shifted the focus away from myself and dedicated myself to the music, my whole approach changed. My love and respect for the great players and composers of the past is what got me through the difficult years of practice and study, and still get me through my own musical challenges.

Everyone goes through the same stages of growth...we're all born, we're toddlers, children, teenagers and finally adults. None of us can skip any phase of growing up. The same is true in learning to play jazz. I was at the same starting point as everyone else. Unlike human growth, however, music can take a lifetime to get to the "teen" years, but that's OK, too. It's all a great journey.



Best Wishes,



Greg Fishman
www.gregfishmanjazzstudios.com

 

Hi Greg,

nice to see you here. Welcome to the forum!

Claus

 

Hello Greg:

You are very welcome joining our board. I personally see it as an honour that you are taking your precious time reading our mediocre contributions, bothering to translate, and comprehensively comment on them.

I'm a dedicated admirer of your teaching lessons and - as an amateur with "ambitions" - have gained very much from it concerning my understanding of the construction of jazz compositions and the way to find proper and even elegant improvisation lines over the changes.

It can clearly be stated that you have rendered outstanding services over the years to teach ambitious students the way into advanced Jazz play.

Yes, I was the one using the term "professional arrogance". Allow me to apologize for those harsh words. They were not meant to offend you personally but they are rather an expression of one of those "imbeciles" with limited abilities trying hard to overcome the obstacles of the "intermediate" player while stumbling upon tempi above 200bpm finding them too much of a challenge to deliver a reasonably decent rendition of the theme let alone an improvisation which deserves being named as such.

But as you said, one must not give up upon the issue of playing up-tempo with ease and comprehension. Jazz music just don't stop short of a certain speed.

It occurs to me that in your recent teaching compilations you have put the focus also on some lessons with slower tempo thereby taking account of the limitations of us enthusiasts with rusty fingers.

The anonymus called Fred can consider himself fortunate being taught by one of the most prestigious scholars in Jazz. I very much envy him for having this particular chance.

I would be glad if you find time again in the future on our board. I look forward to it.

Last but not least, Claus can be much commended for his initiative to enable this correspondence.

Best wishes
Jo

 

Hello to everyone on saxophonforum. I thought that both teachers and students would enjoy reading another discussion with one of my students. This discussion explores the relationship between teacher and student. (I've also included follow-up comments from others on facebook).

Below is my response to a question I received from an adult student who, several months ago, had just a few lessons with me. It really got me thinking about a lot of things regarding the relationship between students and teachers.

It starts out as a straightforward answer to his question about vibrato, but after the answer, I share some deep thoughts and feelings which I had not previously expressed to the student.

I had a question for you regarding use of vibrato. My combo instructor told me to use no vibrato at all. I asked about the way you play it - sound the note then add it. He said it was the sound of the 40's and no longer used. I don't agree with him but being polite. I have cut way back on vibrato since first working with you. Your take please.

--Joe (Name has been changed to protect the identity of the student).

Hi Joe,

Nice to hear from you.

Regarding your question, it's always a bad idea to pit teachers against each other. DO NOT go to your instructor and say, "well, Greg Fishman says you're wrong, and it's THIS way."

He must have his reasons for telling you no vibrato at all. It's probably because it would take a person years of practice and study to gain the amount of control physically, plus the concept of where, when, and how much vibrato to use, in order for it to be beneficial to the performance.

In addition, when you have more than one horn playing a melody line in unison (which you probably have) it is standard to eliminate the vibrato, because it throws off the intonation between the horns. Vibrato is more often used on ballads, especially when only one horn is playing the melody.

Certainly, plenty of current-day jazz saxophonists use vibrato. Joe Lovano and Joshua Redman are just two of the more current players who have beautiful vibratos. How about Michael Brecker? He had one of the most distinctive and beautiful vibratos in music. And of course, one of my personal favorites, Stan Getz, had one of the greatest, most expressive vibratos of all saxophonists.

In the 1940's, in commercial bands like the Glenn Miller band, vibrato was continuous. Andy's right about this type of vibrato. It does sound very dated. Interestingly, "smooth jazz" also uses a similar, exaggerated vibrato that often comes across sounding quite corny, contrived when taken out of its original intended context and used in a straight ahead jazz setting. I always say, don't play a Sanborn solo over "In the Mood," and don't use an "In the Mood" style over a Sanborn tune. They're different genres.

Joe, I'm glad that you wrote to me. In part of my wife's (Judy Roberts) current "putting the truth in the space" concept, I'm going to share some honest thoughts with you below which I've previously kept to myself. You're welcome to take them or leave them. I hope that you take no offense. It's intended to help you as a player and as a student. Having the truth be "out there" seems to help everyone, even though it sometimes ruffles some feathers.

I felt that in your few lessons with me, you were, for whatever reason, a bit skeptical or hesitant about both the content and the way I was presenting the material to you in the lessons. I felt like you wanted to pick and choose what parts of the jazz language you wanted to learn. You would also often mention to me what your past teachers have told you. The very fact that you came to me for help tells me that your previous teacher's advice, well-intended as it may have been, didn't work for you, which is why you came to study with me.

Each teacher has his own method. Sometimes the methods may even seem at odds with each other, but they all eventually should lead to the same path...learning your instrument and learning the jazz language. Learning the language requires an intense study of the native speakers. Lester Young, Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, Monk, Dizzy Gillespie, Coltrane, Etc. They created the styles, and in order to be fluent in the language, we all need to study and learn from the masters. That's not to say that there's no room for innovation, for your own voice, but jazz is based on a very rich tradition which developed over the past one hundred years. If your playing doesn't reflect or acknowledge that great tradition, you won't sound like a jazz player.

If you respect the playing and reputation of the teacher with whom you're studying, you need to follow their instruction without question. That's not to say you can't have a question about the material, but to question the validity or value of their methods, materials and teaching techniques is basically like an amateur saying to a professional, "I know that you're the professional, but I think I know as much as you about this subject, so I'm going to speak to you as if I were your peer and not your student. I simply don't respect you or your playing enough to take what you're telling me as the truth." If this is the case, it's time to find a new teacher, one that you respect.

I have never understood why someone would pay for a teacher's advice and then waste their time and money by taking up valuable lesson time telling the teacher their own theories about music, rather than to simply listen and learn from the experienced teacher. If a teacher is good, he'll leave some room for discussion of the material in the lessons, including questions from the students about the material.

It puts the teacher in an awkward and demeaning position of having to explain himself and justify his methods to a student (not you, specifically, but any student) who may or may not understand the answer on an intellectual level, but who certainly doesn't understand it on a deeper, musical level.

For example, I could explain the concept behind the modes of melodic minor to you so that you'd understand it, at least in a mathematical way, in a relatively short time. However, to actually hear those sounds and use them in your playing with intent and control would take years of practice, study and experience.

When I was a student, I was very fortunate to study with Joe Daley, James Moody, Joe Henderson, Hal Galper, and many other top players. I wouldn't have even thought for a second to challenge them in the way that many beginners seem to challenge their teachers today. If I'd said one word that sounded like a challenge to Joe Daley, he would have thrown me right out the door and told me never to come back. Somehow, there was an unspoken boundary line of respect between students and teachers that, sadly, for some students, no longer seems to exist.

Joe, this is probably way more of an answer than you bargained for with your simple question about vibrato. I hope that you take these comments in the positive spirit with which I've intended them. If you'd like to resume lessons with me in the future, I'd be happy to work with you. If not, I respect your decision to seek out a teacher who can best help you learn in the way that best suits you.

Have fun in your combo.

All the best,

Greg Fishman

July 12 at 8:24pm · Like · 22 people


Anders Swanson Good angle to give to your student; well played.
July 12 at 8:32pm · Like


David Blumberg Dang, probably should have charged him for that lengthy reply Great though!
July 12 at 8:49pm · Like · 3 people


Chuck Parrish Nice. I'd love, with your permission, to print it and hang it up on the bulletin board in my studio.
July 12 at 8:51pm · Like · 2 people


David Blumberg Maybe his other teachers learned from your books..... he's lucky to have you.
July 12 at 8:58pm · Like · 1 person


Rocky Gordon Greg, this was sooooo good that I think you should post it in the Saxophonists group. It was so true. And it's a great reminder to all young players, at any level of playing.
July 12 at 9:09pm · Like · 1 person


Alastair Ingram Well said, Greg. I couldn't agree more.
July 12 at 9:10pm · Like · 3 people


Hallie Loewy Great Greg! I do have a question though. In my studies of Chinese Herbs (for example) with various teachers who I highly respect, I sometimes hear contradicting information . I find that talking to them about this can often be very helpful. I wouldn't want to feel too intimated to bring up confusion that might occur for me, due to concern over offending the teacher. I guess what I'm saying is, can't we respect our teachers AND be confused about conflicting theories, and delve into it with them?
July 12 at 9:37pm · Like · 1 person


Ron Yates Greg - you need to bottle that and every student should be made to drink it.
July 12 at 9:57pm · Like · 1 person


Lester Esteban HI GREG . I second the motion on MR. Chuck Parrish... THANKS.
July 12 at 10:04pm · Like · 1 person


Doug Bistrow re: Vibrato - I feel like a lotta students think of vibrato as being either on or off. I try to make them appreciate that with command over the depth and speed of the vibrato they can really execute some nice phrases.
July 12 at 10:08pm · Like


Douglas Lloyd Bravo! and amen.
July 12 at 10:10pm · Like · 1 person


Doug Bistrow Greg, this got me thinking. You studied with some of the greatest players ever. You may have not questioned them because you heard how great they played. Also, the kid who wrote you probably felt like his teacher would not throw him out of there if he questioned them.
July 12 at 10:12pm · Like · 1 person


Yvonne Higgins-messerschmidt And now we should have a "discussion" regarding a Singer's vibrato, too much, too little or not at all!!! I Know about group vocals, but I'm talking solos. Of course I have my own singing style, infact when I started as a kid it was popular to put a little "Cry' in your voice. But that disappeared w/ Johnnie Ray or (Rae), I believe!! But you covered it all ,Greg! You must be a fine teacher!!!!
July 12 at 11:48pm · Like


Fred Simon On vibrato ... as Bistro said, it's all about mastering its speed and depth. Also, frequency of use ... less is more. Also, knowing when to use, and when not to. All the cats Greg mentioned - Brecker, Getz, etc. - mastered these variables.

By the way, while I agree on the cloying use of overwrought vibrato in much "smooth jazz," Sanborn is a musician steeped in the jazz tradition ... the legions of imitators have distorted and diluted the authenticity of his musicianship.
July 13 at 12:10am · Like

Greg Fishman Doug, I would have questions at times for my teachers, certainly. However, it was different. Of course, I'm more casual and friendly with my students than most of my teachers were with me. It still comes down to an issue of respect, both for the teacher and for the music. For example, I once had a 17 year old transcribe some Charlie Parker. When I saw him the following week and asked him his thoughts on Parker and his music, he stated, "Well, I think Parker basically plays out of tune, squeaks a lot, repeats himself constantly, and would have been a better if he hadn't been a drug addict." I was completely shocked at the student's comments. REALLY??? That's your assessment of Bird? I said, "Let me hear you play the solo." It's no surprise that he couldn't get through it too well, had no clue about how to phrase it properly, and played through it like it was an exercise in the Universal book, with no feeling or emotion. Then I asked him to show me anyplace in the solo where Parker repeated himself. There wasn't one spot. If a phrase was repeated, it was either edited, expanded or displaced. What about the pitch? Bird sounded in tune to me. Perhaps the old recording was fast, but Parker was in tune with the group. Squeaks? Perhaps a chirp here or there. So, let's review...You say Parker is repeating himself. He's not repeating himself. You say he's out of tune. He's not. You say he squeaks. Maybe a chirp once in a while. No big deal. You say he could have been better?? I say that he couldn't have been better. He was Charlie Parker. That's like saying Mozart "could have been better." To top it off, the student's own solos were devoid of the most basic elements of the jazz language, lacking in development, energy, etc. (No surprise here....he's basically just criticized a genius of a language which he himself cannot even speak). Next, I showed him how Parker was developing themes and using sequences to build the solo and tell a story. I also pointed out how Parker was also completely nailing the changes. I'm happy to say, that since this encounter, the student has finally started to show some respect, and is actually now carefully studying the very music which he so carelessly denigrated just a few years ago. But, it took a lot of time and energy and patience to get to this point. Would I have been better off to throw him out on his ear like my teachers would have done? That's just not really my style of teaching. I won't say that the thought didn't cross my mind, but my experience taught me that he was so young and clueless that he simply didn't even know what he was saying was blasphemous. He delayed his own progress with his unfounded arrogance and attitude, and with his thinking that he knew better than to take my advice and study Parker. I knew that in my own way, I'd get him to come around. I can't imagine how he got to be that way, but I've found that often my best students are quite humble respectful and hard working, and the difficult ones are overly pleased with themselves and unimpressed by players who are light years ahead of themselves .
July 13 at 12:19am · Like · 6 people


John Temmerman Greg, I really liked what you wrote. However, I am always prepared to tell a student not just to do something, but why they need to do it and how it helps them become a better player, in terms that they understand. I'm also prepared to vary the approach, based on how individual students practice and learn.
July 13 at 12:23am · Like · 2 people

Greg Fishman John, not only am I prepared to tell a student how and where and why to do something, but it's an integral part of the lessons. Yes, we work on vocabulary, but then, I show them how and where to use that vocabulary. There's not one thing taught in the lessons that's simply "busy work." Everything will be a part of that student's future musical identity. I back this up by playing examples from recordings and demonstrating the concepts in my own solos, and from the etudes I've written.
July 13 at 12:27am · Like · 2 people

Greg Fishman Hallie, it depends on when you decide to share the contradictory views with the new teacher. If you keep silent and simply let the new teacher show you what they want to show you, and, after you've thoroughly explored their methods and understand their way of thinking, after it's clear that you've listened to them and understand their point of view and approach, it is THEN fine to discuss alternate or conflicting views with them. If your new teacher is explaining something, and you continually interrupt them and challenge them to prove their point on everything that is different from your current understanding of the subject matter, you, in my opinion, are not being a good student, and, further, you're demotivating the teacher to share his thoughts freely with you. It is natural that after many challenges, the teacher will quickly tire of explaining himself to you, and he'll teach you in a more generic way, which would raise fewer challenges and objections from you. There is a flow of energy that needs to happen between a teacher and a student. It does go in both directions, but it must be guided by the teacher's judgment of what the student needs, not by the student's judgment of what he needs. Sometimes students can be accurate in diagnosing their own problems, but in my experience, they're usually far away from the right path to solve their problems. They often will insist on working on things that they're simply not ready for, but they don't realize it. It would be like a person trying to work out with 50 lb weights, who's struggling with that amount of weight, working with a trainer. After the session where the student barely lifts the 50 lbs, struggling with keeping good form while lifting the weights, proudly announces to the teacher that, even though he couldn't lift the 50 lbs very easily, he wants to practice next with the 500 lb weights. There's simply no logic to this approach....I know I couldn't lift 50lbs, but I bet I can lift 500lbs....I don't think so.
July 13 at 12:39am · Like · 5 people


Doug Bistrow I feel like the teacher's struggle between expecting unquestioning discipline and having to explain why he is teaching what he is has been similar throughout time and areas of study. I mean, don't even make me go into the Yoda/Luke apprenticeship.
July 13 at 1:06am · Like

Greg Fishman It is a fascinating relationship. Some students need to prove to themselves that their way won't work. It's not until they've gone that route that they're ready for a different approach. It really is a balancing act....the lessons must be challenging, but still fun and interesting. The student needs to show respect, but not be so afraid of the teacher that he doesn't feel comfortable in the lessons. The student needs to show enough respect to show up prepared and on time to lessons, yet, also be comfortable enough that, if they've put in a good effort during the week, and still aren't quite prepared, that they can still feel good about going to the lesson. The teacher needs to be forgiving enough to overlook it occasionally, a student shows up a bit unprepared. After all, the student is NOT a professional. It's expected that they will make mistakes to learn by.
July 13 at 1:15am · Like · 2 people


Monica Shriver I always told my students (whichever side of the coin they were on, since I was both a private teacher and a classroom teacher for quite a few years) was that they needed to do what I asked them to do when they were with me and they needed to do what their other teacher asked them to do when they were them... and eventually they would find what worked best for them and start to put different pieces together. As a classroom teacher you must do what I ask because that's your grade and I'm looking at the big picture of the ensemble. As your private teacher you are paying me good money for my opinion.
July 13 at 1:28am · Like


Monica Shriver I agree with everything you replied with and I love the idea of "putting the truth in the space"... I wish more people were willing to do that and accept it. Kudos!
July 13 at 1:30am · Like


Bruce Mak ITS * FUNNY * HOW * IT * ALL * WORKS * OUT
July 13 at 1:32am · Like


Rick Stone Ah, the proverbial "riot act." I love it! It's amazing how much we knew when we were teenagers, and then the more we studied and learned, the MORE we realized we DON'T know. You know what they say "ignorance is bliss." I've always loved this Mark Twain quote "When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years."
July 13 at 6:55am · Unlike · 3 people


Ray Reach Greg, May I have your permission to print your "Vibrato" comments for my students?
July 13 at 7:01am · Like


Ron Aprea Greg, I've been teaching saxophone for 40 years. My teaching credentials are my former students. If I don't have 100% trust from a student, we part. Your response to your student is admirable, but will probably do more good to Facebook friends than it will to the mixed up vibrato skeptic. Your comments are perfect!
July 13 at 9:25am · Like


Alex Trujillo You're my hero
July 13 at 9:40am · Like


Donny Piela Greg, I love taking lessons from you and have no problem shutting my mouth and engaging ears. You are right on with your teaching, especiallly your uncanny knack of determining the experience level of your students after hearing them play just a few notes. I wouldn't think of challenging you on the content or direction of your teaching and methods but you always make me feel that I can ask clarifying questions when the need arises. My shoulder surgery has been successful and I can't wait to resume my lessons with you the end of August.
July 13 at 9:51am · Like


Carole March Vito Superb letter and answer. I hope his "combo instructor" reads it.
July 13 at 11:14am · Like


Geraldo de Oliveira i knew you could play the saxophone, bit did not know you could also write so well...great reply!!
July 13 at 11:30am · Like

Greg Fishman Ron, I just got a phone call from the vibrato student, who thanked me for the letter and told me that he wants to resume lessons. Fortunately, he understood that my comments weren't a personal attack, but directed to any student that acts as he did. We had an interesting discussion....He said that he honestly never meant any disrespect, and that he's a business man, used to running a company, taking charge of things. Also, he felt he'd been burned by some bad teachers in the past, and was maybe being a bit defensive. We also spoke about the fact that kids often make faster progress than adults when studying privately. He thinks it's partially an age-difference thing...that kids are used to following instructions from a teacher, whereas adults, often successful in other fields are used to giving orders, not taking them. It was a good discussion. He ended by thanking me for taking the time to write such a detailed answer, and for giving him a huge dose of humility. Truth in the space....it worked!
July 13 at 12:00pm · Like · 1 person

Greg Fishman Donny - glad you're feeling better! Looking forward to resuming your lessons this summer!
July 13 at 12:01pm · Like

Greg Fishman Ray - (and everyone who's asked) - you are all welcome to print my comments. Thanks for being a part of the discussion.
July 13 at 12:40pm · Like


Jimmy Haag I believe that students should expect three things from their respective teachers.
They are: 1) information 2) motivation 3) how to use the first two(Direction)--Vibrato should be applied like a singer since playing an instrument is supposed to be like singing, always naturally occurring and from the heart, soul, and ear. This is just my belief
July 13 at 12:42pm · Like · 1 person


Pedro Saxo honestly brilliant. Helpings humans, after that, musicians. Bravo.
July 13 at 2:14pm · Like


Sue Terry Excellent Greg.
July 13 at 2:59pm · Like


Jon Ziomek You should collect your posts about teaching, Greg -- they're thoughtful and sharp. Someday you'll have enough for a book. I'm not kidding. Maybe you already do .....
July 13 at 3:00pm · Like


Ian Nevins Good stuff Greg. As a teacher I understand the dilemma between setting them straight right away, and firmly, versus devoting the time and patience to bring someone around. I generally try to "save the world one person at a time" the way you graciously did in this case. You're a good man. But I've certainly have had my share of "got no time for your nonsense - bye bye" type of moments with students too. Never Joe Daley style, but I have tended to lay down the firm boundaries in recent years for whatever reason. Hopefully I've done it in a way that is not unkind. I admire your kindness and patience in your dealings with this student. And for all the patience you showed, your message was not diluted one bit at all.
July 13 at 4:41pm · Like


Marlene Rosenberg Bravo Greg!
July 13 at 5:52pm · Like


Eric Koppa Such a compelling and thought-provoking nugget of wisdom, Greg. Thank you for sharing.
July 13 at 11:06pm · Like


Felice Gaia I just asked the same question recently of my voice coach. She told me if it is supposed to be there it will surface. It comes so naturally for me. She is asking me to hold it back to work on other areas that need more work. It is a good coverup for me. In flute and singing.
July 13 at 11:49pm · Like


Bill Goodwin greg that was great , all the best to you the fab Judy Roberts!!
July 14 at 12:01am · Like

Greg Fishman Thanks, Bill! I'll say "hi" to Judy for you. Please stay in touch.
July 14 at 12:59am · Like


Larry Munoz Greg, I'm going to look for these kinds of posts from you more often. This is the 2nd time I read one of your teacher-student posts, and both times they read like a novel (a *good* one)...and I'm not even an instructor, I just perform. I tried teaching once and enjoyed watching my student make a lot of progress but lost my patience when the kid basically gave up during the summer break. The whole time the 1st-year student thought he could assess my skills when all I did was play his exercises for him once in a while when he was having a lot of trouble. I became so annoyed with the situation that I quit and haven't tried teaching since (this was ~20 years ago). To all of you that teach, I admire you. The ability to effectively teach is a precious gift. Even though I do not anticipate teaching again, these insights, in some strange way, inspire my never-ending desire to improve my own musicianship. The learning never ends.
July 14 at 2:51am · Like · 1 person


Elaine Dame Thanks, everybody. As a jazz vocals teacher, this was extremely interesting and helpful.
July 14 at 10:56am · Like


Christy Smith Long tones ,can you really stand to hear vibrato(wind & bowed intsruments).Hey Greg ,you'll always tell the students the right thing. peace love to ytou and Judy!
July 16 at 2:04am · Like

greg@gregfishmanjazzstudios.com
www.gregfishmanjazzstudios.com

 

Very nice discussion, Greg!

For me part of it boils down to the question how to find a good teacher. Every city has only so many teachers. Every student has preferences about the kind of music he or she'd like to play. Depending on how advanced the student is and how advanced the teacher is (sic!) there needs to be a certain cross-match, which is not always easy to achieve. Sadly, I haven't found a matching teacher in the city I live in. So I need to travel from time to time to get some good lessons - or frequent this forum.

I'd also like to comment on the topic of asking questions and questioning the teacher. I'm a scientist and taught at university. Of all the students I had usually those stood out to me who asked good and/or interesting questions. I also taught them not to take every one of my prescious words as the gospel but to challenge what I say. I simply cannot always be right and there is no need to be a know-it-all - at least in science. How about music?

Cheers,
Raggae

 

Hi Raggae,

Yes, it is hard to find a good teacher in some cities. This is why I'm so happy that Skype and technology has come into the musical picture. There are good teachers on all instruments these days from major cities around the world using this technology.

I teach many students from small towns where there are no teachers available. In the old days, students would fly to Chicago for lessons with me. Now, I get an email from new students who want a Skype lesson. No travel time or expense is involved, and the same information reaches the student.

In regard to your other point, I don't claim to always be right, (but I do think Parker is always right) and I hope that I don't come off as a "know it all." I'm constantly studying the music and the past masters to further my knowledge and share it with my students. I'm also constantly tweaking my teaching methods. If I find a better way to teach a student a concept, I have no problem telling the student I've found a better way, and I'll immediately share alternate ways to look at things, even if it contradicts something I might have said in the past. All that matters is that the student gets the best possible information.

I love good questions from students, but there's a difference between a good question from an earnest student and a challenge from arrogant student with an big ego and an attitude, who knows nothing about the music and hasn't put in any serious practice time. In other words, questions are welcome, but a student sax player who thinks he knows more than Charlie Parker is not.

In my opinion, if you're learning jazz saxophone, you should look to the masters for guidance. Lester Young, Coleman Hawkins, Charlie Parker, Sonny Stitt, Stan Getz, John Coltrane, Sonny Rollins, Cannonball Adderley, Joe Henderson, Michael Brecker, etc.

Decades of studying these players has led me to believe that they set certain precedents about playing jazz saxophone. I guess I look to them like a lawyer would look at supreme court case histories...They give you a good 'rule of thumb' for complex issues. These 'rules' or 'precedents' came from some of the greatest musical minds of the past century.

If a student is doing something that has nothing at all in common with the way any of the masters (listed above) have played, and there's no recorded musical precedent for what the student doing, either the student has found something missed by all of the past masters, or he's wrong. I'm betting that in 99.9% of the cases where this occurs, that it's the masters who are right and the student who is wrong.

There's a lot of research involved in learning jazz. Just as young lawyer would need to show both logic and 'precedents' for his point of view by looking at past case histories, I figured out how to play on changes by studying the way the master players did it. I spent many years transcribing solos and studying them, trying to find the logic behind those great solos.

For example, when I was a young student, if I was having trouble playing a minor ii-7b5 / V7b9 / i-, I would listen to recordings to hear how Stitt or Getz or Rollins or Parker would approach it, and then study the way they did it and then come up with my own 'take' based on what I heard them play.

So, if a young student is playing something that sounds to me like they're not hitting the changes, and I tell them they're not making the changes, and they challenge me, I ask them to show me any recording of a master player doing what they're doing. Of course, there are times when players intentionally play 'outside,' but this is something an advanced player would do after demonstrating that they know how to play on the changes. The players who know how to play 'outside' have very organized systems for doing so.

In cases where playing on the changes is an issue, I've found that students usually struggle because of some very specific things:

1. He hasn't listened to the masters.
2. He doesn't know his chords and scales.
3. He has no jazz vocabulary (licks, patterns, tunes).
4. He doesn't have good technical control of the saxophone.
5. He doesn't hear his notes in harmonic context - to him, a 'C' over an A-7 sounds the same as a 'C' over a Bbmaj7.
6. He plays intellectually, consciously thinking about scales and key signatures, but doesn't actually hear the sounds he's playing.
7. He's playing primarily from muscle memory (I call it wandering fingers) and he's not focused on listening to the sound of the notes being played over the chords.
8. He might hear notes that fit with the chord, but he can't locate those notes on his instrument.
9. He hasn't transcribed the masters and played along with the recordings
10. He doesn't have the time, patience or self-discipline needed to do the work required to gain fluency on the saxophone.

I've found that even if students have limited practice time, if they use it well and are clear with their goals and look at the learning process as long-term, they usually do very well. It's students (often the adults) who want an "answer" right now about how to play that get impatient and frustrated and end up quitting. I feel that most students give up far too quickly, and that they underestimate just how many times they need to repeat an action for it to become a part of them. It takes many more repetitions than most would guess to really absorb a concept. I just reviewed Lester Young's historic solo on "Shoe Shine Boy," playing along with the old recording. I bet I played it about 300 times, just out of the sheer joy of hearing it and playing it over and over again. I also wrote it out so that I could study it. Most students wouldn't do this many repetitions of anything.

I love teaching and sharing the things I've learned from my teachers and from studying the old masters. I understand that many players these days are recreational players and that they don't have eight hours a day to practice. I have no problem with that, and I've come up with some practice systems and strategies to help players maximize the benefits they get from their practice time.

 

It seems to me that Bird (and hence all his admirers who today correctly see him as one of the masters) was lucky to not have a teacher with that view

Cheers
HanZZ

 

Hi Greg,

very interesting points.

All what you wrote about the "ignorant student" could be true.

But sorry about that, your point of view sounds somewhat ignorant as well.

And althoug it is worth to know a lot about the old masters, I personally believe that we should not fixed on them in oder to be crearive and innovative.

We have to diffrentiate between students who wants to become professionals and students who starts to play the sax just
for pleasure and fun.

I started nearly two years ago in the age of 50, never learned an instrument before. And of course I would appreciate to know all the skills you mentioned.

But I am still in business and therefore I have to focus in order to play it,
but without knowing all theory and technics.

Fortunally I work with a professional teacher, who is able to consider
my personal lifysitution.

With kind regars,

Dreas

 

It's a matter of if you want to sound like jazz. If you don't want to - don't listen to the old masters. This isn't an ignorance thing. It's just the truth. The old master created the jazz sound and you can't find it nowhere else - except of other guys who learned it from the old masters.

And you don't need the differance between fun players and serious players (or how you wanna call them). You just need to make the differance between guys who wanna learn jazz and who don't want to.

At the end everybody is free to play and listen to everything he wants to. For example myself. I use to play other styles and listen to them. When i'm jamming with jazz players i can feel myself lacking in phrasing and articulation. Which doesn't occur when i play straight stuff like funk. On the other hand i find some jazz players don't have the right feeling in funk music. Theese guys just didn't listen to funk music.

It's so easy as it is true. If you don't believe now - you'll believe it in ten years when you gained enough experience.

 

Sehr interessante Diskussion. Probleme Erwachsener beim Lernen... das hat meiner Meinung nach nicht nur individuelle Ursachen, sondern zu einem großen Teil gesellschaftliche.

Denke ich an meine Jugend zurück, da ist mir das Lernen generell wesentlich leichter gefallen. Erstens hatte ich schlicht mehr Zeit, mich mit Dingen zu beschäftigen, und zweitens lernt man als Kind einfach schneller.

Greg hat in vielen Punkten recht. Ungeduld, zu hohe Erwartungen an sich selbst und andere, Leistungsdenken... das sind nun mal alles "Schemata", die in unserer Umgebung ständig vorgelebt werden. In allen Lebensbereichen. Und ich finde es unheimlich schwer, sich von diesen "eingebläuten" Verhaltensmustern zu lösen. Natürlich will wohl jeder, der ein Instrument spielen lernt, möglichst schnell möglichst "gut" sein. Man tut fast alles dafür. Kauft sich ein superteueres Instrument. Jede Menge Noten. Diverses Zubehör. Sucht sich einen Lehrer. Übt sogar ab und an, je nachdem, wie viel Zeit einem Job, Hausarbeit, Familie und all die anderen schönen Hobbies lassen - und nach 18 Monaten ist man immer noch nicht perfekt?

Ich sehe es an mir: Geduld ist wohl das wichtigste, was man zum Erlernen neuer Fähigkeiten braucht. Als Erwachsener läuft einem jedoch - biologisch - die Zeit davon. Ich lasse mich da gern von mir selbst unter Druck setzen. Immer im Kopf: wer weiß, wie lang ich das noch machen kann, bevor die Finger nicht mehr wollen, der Rücken streikt oder das Hirn schlapp macht? Darum ertappe ich mich immer wieder dabei, wie ich mit mir selbst höchst unzufrieden bin. Mit meiner Leistung in der Arbeit, im Haushalt, im Sport oder - beim Saxen. Leistung. Das ist es wohl. Erwachsene MÜSSEN Leistung bringen. Vielleicht muss man sich davon erst mal lösen, um gelöst zu üben und sich an den kleinen Fortschritten freuen zu können. Es ist ja schon seit Urzeiten bekannt, dass noch kein Meister vom Himmel gefallen ist.

Grüße
Claudia

... die seit Jahren versucht, geduldiger zu werden...

 

Biologisch gilt das für Kinder aber ganz genauso.

 

Jaja! Du weißt schon wie ich das meine. Fängst Du mit 10 an, hast Du statistisch 35 Jahr mehr Zeit, als wenn Du mit 45 anfängst. 35 Jahre ist viel um etwas RICHTIG GUT zu lernen.

Grüße
Claudia

 

[Klugscheissmodus on]
Bei gleichbleibendem Lebensaustrittsalter ist das nicht nur statistisch, sondern ganz real so. [Klugscheissmodus off]

SCNR
HanZZ

 

Dann verrat uns doch mal Dein reales Lebensaustrittsalter ...

Klar weiß ich, wie Du das meinst. Ich bin aber trotzdem anderer Meinung. Guck Dir nur mal an, wie viel Geduld und wie viel Böcke viele Kinder haben, ein Instrument zu lernen. Na klar bin ich auch neidisch auf die, die früher angefangen haben. Und ich könnte auch schon 16 Jahre länger Sax spielen, wenn ich damals dabei geblieben wäre und nicht mein Studium hätte abschließen müssen. Da kommt jetzt aber ne Menge Konjunktiv ins Spiel. Ich habe keine Ahnung, ob ich morgen überhaupt noch lebe, um Sax zu spielen.

Darum GENIESSE ich es HEUTE. Und das fühlt sich jenseits aller tickenden Uhren richtig gut an.

 

Hallo,

noch ein Aspekt aus der Sicht des Späteinsteigers: Wenn man im Alter noch was Neues anfängt, steigt die Lebensqualität und die Chance, (noch) älter zu werden

Grüße an alle "Bestager" (und die Jugend)

Badener.

 

Very interesting discussion. Problems with adult learning ... which has, in my opinion not only individual causes, but to a large part of society.

When I think back to my youth, since I generally liked learning much easier. First, I simply had more time to occupy myself with things, and secondly, you learn as a child faster.

Greg is right on many points. Impatience, too high expectations of themselves and others, thinking power ... the times are now all "schemes" which are exemplified in our environment constantly. In all areas of life. And I find it incredibly difficult to break away from this "ingrained" behavior patterns. Of course, most everyone wants, learns to play an instrument, to be as fast as possible "good". It does almost everything for it. Buy a super expensive instrument. Lots of notes. Other Accessories. Seeks out a teacher. Exercises even now and then, depending on how much time have a job, housework, family and all the other beautiful hobbies - and after 18 months it is still not perfect?

I see it in me, patience is probably the most important thing you need to learn new skills. As an adult, however, runs one - out of time - biologically. I leave you like to put pressure on myself. Always in my head: who knows how long I can still do that before the finger no longer want to strike the back of the brain or makes flabby? Therefore, I find myself always returning, as I am extremely dissatisfied with themselves. With my performance at work, at home, sports or - at Saxen. Performance. That must be it. Adults must bring power. Maybe you have solved it only once, resolved to practice and look forward to the little progress can be. It is already known since ancient times, that no champion has fallen from the sky.

Regards
Claudia

... which has been trying for years to be more patient ...



Hi Claudia,

I hope you'll forgive that I've had google translate your comments so that I can understand them (I don't speak German). Thank you for your thoughtful response. Yes, I know that it is quite difficult for adults to learn new things. However, it's not impossible. I agree with your comments about the challenges facing adults. Mostly, it's patience and expectations.

It's a major blow to the adult ego to think that they can't rush to an intellectual answer and improve their playing. For example, if I read a book about how to play golf, I can go out and play after reading the book, and I probably won't be any better than before reading the book. I'd know more intellectually, but that knowledge needs to be paired with the physical reality of swinging the golf club and judging the distance and direction needed to hit the ball. It's the same with music. I could teach a stranger how to spell all chords and scales in a pretty short time, but to get them to play them on an instrument and to recognize the differences in the sounds of different scales and chords would take much more time.

I have found that for many people, the instrument isn't the biggest problem. It's hearing the music in a way which makes sense to the student that is the real challenge. For example, typing these words quickly isn't hard for me to do. I'm a good typist. I can press the keys quickly. However, creating the content that I'm typing takes a lot of thought and time. My fingers don't know what to type unless I can think of an idea. It's the same when playing the saxophone. You need a clear idea of what you'd like to play at all times, even if it's improvised. This sentence was improvised. We all improvise with language every day. I just try and teach people to do it with musical sounds and a musical vocabulary.

Thanks, Claudia!

 

Nope, you don't sound like a know-it-all at all. That was just part of my train of thoughts concerning teachers in general.

I agree, but HOW would you recommend to listen? I often find myself playing e.g. King Curtis as background music while doing other things. It probably doesn't come as a big surprise that this does not really improve anything. But how else could or should I approach it?

Cheers,
Raggae

 

Hi Raggae,

That's an excellent question. This brings up the difference between what I call "active" listening and "passive" listening. Listening to things in the background is passive listening.

In order to really make a difference in your playing with listening, it needs to be active listening. Here are some guidelines I use for myself when actively listening, with the goal of enhancing my playing:

1. Listen in a comfortable environment. I actually do a lot of quality listening in the car while on long driving trips.

2. Don't have a TV or computer on or do email or anything else while listening.

3. Listen many times to the same track (not the entire CD).

4. Listen through and try to take mental notes about different aspects of the performance;

A) Notice the tone...is it bright? dark? subtone? full-tone? Is he putting vibrato on the notes?

B) Notice the inflections...is he using grace notes? scooped notes? ornaments (turns)?

C) Notice the register...is he playing over the full range of the horn, or is he focusing on low, middle, high or altissimo notes?

D) Notice the rhythms....is he playing mostly eighth notes? sixteenth notes (doubletime)? Or, perhaps longer notes like half or quarter notes?

E) Notice the articulation....is he playing with what I call "mainstream articulation," tonguing the upbeats and slurring into the downbeats, or is he using lots of slurs or staccato notes? Perhaps he's tonguing repeated notes at times?

F) Notice the dynamics....is he playing loud, medium-loud or softly? Is the dynamic level changing? Is he adding breath or tongue accents to some of the notes?

G) Notice the rests...is he leaving lots of space between his phrases, or is there very little space? When he leaves space, do it seem like the rhythm section is responding to something he played? When he comes back in with his next phrase, does it seem like it's a continuation of his previous idea, or does it seem like he's responding to the response of the rhythm section?

H) Sing along with the recording and try to match all of the elements discussed above. Try, at first, to sing along with the entire solo. After a few times through, break it into smaller phrases. Listen to the first phrase (or first four bars) and sing along with it, trying to match with your voice everything that you hear the performer playing on the saxophone. Once you can do this confidently, sing it without the recording in the background. Next, go through the same process with each subsequent phrase. Once you get the second phrase, add it to the first one and sing them together. This will take many many repetitions, but you'll notice more and more about the solo with each repetition. Continue to sing along and memorize one phrase at a time and sing both with and without the recording.

G) Take your saxophone out and try to find the first few notes of the first phrase you sung. This will require lots of patience, as you learn how to concentrate on the sound of the note you're singing and locate that exact note on the horn. This is great training. You don't need to do the entire solo in one day. Everyone has a different comfort level for this sort of work. It can be a combination of exciting, frustrating and tiring work, so do it until you feel like you're losing your focus, and then continue the work the next day, week, month, etc. There's no time limit on this. If you must slow down the recording with a computer program like amazing slow-downer or transcribe, that's fine, but if you can do it at full speed, that's even better. Either way, you'll get great results. I must stress that you need to be very patient and ready for lots of trial and error. Don't give up too easily. It might take 50 or 500 tries to figure out the right notes for just one phrase, but it's the process that will help you. The very act of searching for the notes will help to teach you how to focus and get the sound you desire.

H) If you get "stuck" and simply can't figure out a few notes or phrases, just skip them and put rests there. You can fix it later. Don't let it stop you from getting most of the solo.

I) Play the solo along with the recording, matching all of the details described above.

J) Listen to the recording again and try to sing the bass notes of the chords. This is a different type of listening than done previously. This will help you to hear the relationship between the notes of the solo and the chord progression. Sing the bass notes.

K) Once you can hear the bass notes, go to a piano and try to figure out the chords of the song. If you need help, you can try looking up the song in a fakebook and playing the chords on the piano in simple voicings. It is important to have some piano knowledge so that you can play basic chords and hear the notes all sounding at once.

L) If you want to further analyze the solo, you can try writing down the notes and rhythms and putting the chord symbols over each measure. This is an advanced technique. If this is too difficult, no worries. You'll still get much benefit from learning the solo by ear.

You can choose do to any or all of the suggestions above, and they will dramatically improve your listening skills. Be sure to choose a solo that you really like, and one that you think is not so far outside of your technical abilities that you can't imagine yourself ever being able to play it. In other words, don't start with a hard Coltrane solo for your first attempt at this!

I hope that this information helps!

Sincerely,


Greg Fishman
www.gregfishmanjazzstudios.com

 

Dear Greg,

great to have you here and so i'll take the opportunity to ask for your comment on my issue.
I'm playing sax for about 15years, since all this time i'm listening to jazz beeing the music i love.
Hearing the music in my head is no problem, singing (or much easier whistling solos to an imaginative melody in my head) comes also easy.
What i often do as practice is having some abersold rhythm section in the background and i play without the sheet music to the harmonics of the band.
The reason for this is that i don't know what all these complicated key descriptions above the solo phrases are meaning!!!
So playing solos in a bigband or combo is working as long as i have the tune in my head and therefore know when and where the changes are or,
in the case of an unknown tune, the rhythm section is providing the harmonics clearly and show me where the musical path is leading!
i really would like to know how to solve this problem!
What would be your suggestion?

Best Regards and thanks in advance
Thomas

 

Hi Greg,

Sorry that I did not write in English, but my lunch brake is very short and because I have to look up so many words I just did not have time enough to write down my thoughts in a foreign language. I tried to read the translation produced by google, and I have to say it is more than awful. Sorry... so I tried to translate yesterday at night what I MEANT. I hope it is better than the google version.

"Very interesting discussion. Problems of adult people concerning learning… in my opinion the cause for that is not only individual. A big part is caused by society.

When I think back to my youth, I remember that learning was much easier for me generally. On one hand I simply had more time left to spend on certain things, on the other hand children definitely learn much faster than adults.

Greg is right in many points. Impatience, too high expectations on oneself and others, thinking that performance is most important… all these things are “schemes” that are exemplified by our fellow men in every single situation of life. And I think it is extremely difficult to escape behavior patterns you have been trained on for a long time period. It is natural, that everybody who learns an instrument wants to be “good” as soon as possible. One does almost everything to reach that aim. One buys a horribly expensive instrument. Many many sheets. A lot of equipment. Tries to find a teacher. And every now and then one even finds time to practice besides job, cleaning and washing, family and all the beautiful hobbies you do not want to quit – and after 18 months (of playing the instrument) one still is not perfect?


When looking at myself I see, that patience is most important if you want to learn new skills. But adults run out of time – biologically. Somehow I tend to put pressure on myself, always keeping in mind the following: who knows, how long I can do this, before my fingers will get stiff (comment: I suffer from arthrosis), my back might hurt too much or my brain doesn’t work anymore? I very oftenly find myself being extremely dissatisfied with myself. My performance at work, at home, doing sports or – playing my sax. Performance. I think that is the problem: Adults HAVE to perform. Maybe one has to free oneself from thinking like that to be able to practice in a relaxed way and to enjoy every little step of progress. It is well known that experts do not fall from the sky.

Sincerely
Claudia

... who has been trying for years to be more patient..."

Up to now I did not have the opportunity to try playing golf. But certainly I know what you want to say. This year in spring they offered a workshop about cords and scales in my hometown. I asked my teacher for his opinion, if it would be useful for me to participate - but he said, that it would be to early for me. First I should PLAY and HAVE FUN and then - in a few years - I should try to learn about theory. At first I was a bit disappointed, but now I think he was right. I do not have a lot of time for my instrument, so why should I waste it with a weekend of dry theory of a higher level?

Nice aspects about language. Improvising with words is quite easy for me - at least in German. I am not able to play quickly on my sax. And I always tried to play the melody of the song I practiced as exactly as possible. But with the "Tune of the month" here in our forum things changed. The first song I played was short, strictly according to the sheet and - I was frustrated. Then someone asked me to include a small improvisation part next time and I tried. I was not really satisfied with what came out, but then I startet to try to improvise melodies I know very well. Everytime I played my sax I included a song I know by heart, played it and then tried to improvise. In July then I improvised a melody for the tune of the month. I had a kind of a concept, but everytime I played the song I changed it during playing. It was an interesting experience. I was not feeling so well with that and still I have severe problems when leaving the save way of the known melody - but when I listen to the records we did it is amazing - sometimes it really worked! It sounds nice. And it fits somehow and I have to smile when I listen to the things my friend and I "produce" in our living rooms.

You have to know that I like jazz. But I do not want to be a jazzer. I respect the great history of jazz and I sometimes love to listen to it, but my way will go towards another direction - Rock and Heavy Metal is my world. But that doesn't change anything about (having no) time, (putting oneself under) pressure and reading books about playing golf.

Thanks, Greg! Nice to have you here.

Best wishes
Claudia

Oooops, that was a very long lunch brake this time.